[10:59] okay let's do this [10:59] hi everyone [11:00] there's a draft agenda on the wiki as mentioned in the topic [11:00] really what I would like primarily is to hear people's thoughts on what Mozpad should be all about [11:00] I simply haven't seen enough "users" around for a real user group, but I'm happy to hear other opinions [11:00] I blogged recently about the idea of focusing on a site to make it easy to use XULRunner and/or WebRunner [11:00] everything you need to download, links to documentation, demos/samples, etc. [11:01] or even a full-blown product site [11:01] do people have opinions on this? [11:01] for something full-blown, including updates, you'd need quite a bit of infrastructure [11:01] why? [11:01] you mean for builds? [11:01] that's one thing [11:02] I'm leaning towards focus on WebRunner and related projects (since that's what I already do a lot of anyway ;) [11:02] shaver said they'd give us boxes for builds [11:02] who's going to maintain them, plasticmillion? :) [11:02] Builds of what? [11:02] s/maintain/administrate [11:02] if we want builds someone has to volunteer to deal with that, obviously [11:02] we already have a build system project so that could dovetail in nicely [11:03] * WeirdAl nods [11:03] enefekt: you're championing the build thing right now, right? [11:03] automated project generation and packaging [11:03] bsmedberg: are you here? [11:03] enefekt: ah so builds... no so much? [11:03] * bsmedberg is [11:03] I would love to see builds of xulrunner for linux. the last time I checked the nightly build of trunk was months old [11:03] I used the term "build" before and got all kinds of mis-interpretations [11:04] bsmedberg: you said there's no need to worry about SDK builds cause that's already sorted, is that right? [11:04] yes... they are in FTP right now [11:04] * twentyafterfour managed to build it himself.... [11:04] link? [11:04] http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/xulrunner/nightly/latest-trunk/ for linux/mac [11:04] sweet [11:05] http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/xulrunner/nightly/experimental/win32-newref/latest-trunk/ for windows [11:05] so the SDK is part of that package? [11:05] plasticmillion: not builds in the sense of compiling native code, which I try to stay away from [11:05] * plasticmillion assumes that the XULRunner install includes the SDK headers and import libraries [11:06] alright well let me put it this way: [11:06] who here cares about XULRunner? [11:06] the app packaging is important. I think that mfinkle has a good thing going with the webrunner webapp packaging system [11:06] plasticmillion: there are two packages there. XR, and the SDK [11:06] who cares about WebRunner? [11:06] * WeirdAl raises his hand for XR, but has no experience with WR [11:06] * twentyafterfour cares about them both dearly [11:06] bsmedberg: ah ok, the SDK thing is pretty subtle [11:06] plasticmillion: xulrunner-1.9a8pre.en-US.win32.sdk.zip <- SDK [11:06] Depends on what you're packaging it for [11:06] * plasticmillion cares about both, with an emphasis on WebRunner since he cares most about the future [11:07] hehe, is XR dead on arrival then? :) [11:07] ok so we have one person who cares about XULrunner, one cares about both and no one else cares about anything? [11:07] plasticmillion: So what is the future? :) [11:07] webrunner needs xulrunner....even if firefox can run it now [11:07] enefekt: well I have my opinion... [11:07] XR runs apps with chrome privs: WR runs them with website privs [11:07] it's the same thing [11:07] XULRunner+ [11:07] I don't think it needs to be an either/or proposition [11:07] both too [11:08] exactly [11:08] bsmedberg: yeah I guess not [11:08] * davidwboswell cares about cross platform apps that web developers can create -- whatever that underlying technology makes that possible [11:08] xulrunner should not be going away soon [11:08] how about we renamed XULRunner to ChromeRunner? ;-) [11:08] * mfinkle agrees with bsmedberg [11:08] *much* cooler name [11:08] ok and the idea of a product-oriented site? [11:08] and rename webrunner too...that name is taken by other stuff [11:08] bsmedberg and mfinkle beat me up when I suggested this [11:08] but if we band together we can take them! [11:09] -1 for product site [11:09] not sure if the name WebRunner is taken by anything we care about [11:09] mfinkle: can you explain to the class why you don't like the idea? [11:09] hahahah .... I don't know, I am not anti-branding but I don't see mozpad as a product as much as a platform [11:09] whatever, the real question is: is this a community site or a product/platform site [11:10] --> AaronAndy has joined this channel (chatzilla@moz-C71E7D5.cpd.usu.edu). [11:10] true .... I guess I just don't like *Runner [11:10] plasticmillion: mozpad has better things to do than create a product site [11:10] plasticmillion: I think we're a little of both... [11:10] mfinkle: yeah like bandying around cool naming options! [11:10] how many of us (in mozpad) are qualified to create a product site? [11:10] * plasticmillion is [11:10] but I'm very time constrained [11:10] plasticmillion: not really - we're not qualified [11:10] mfinkle: build it and they will come [11:11] mfinkle: is your issue that we have better things to do or that we aren't qualified? [11:11] not if what you build sucks [11:11] ok we could make a product site. but what is the product? [11:11] plasticmillion: both [11:11] most of us don't have the time to make a product site [11:11] mfinkle: some would say it *has* to suck to attract contributions [11:11] WeirdAl: +1 [11:11] mfinkle: okay so what better things? [11:11] IRC [11:11] heh [11:12] contribute to MDC some docs explaining XR and WR [11:12] the concepts and why choose one or the other [11:12] mfinkle +1 [11:12] mfinkle +1 [11:12] yeah that makes sense but that's a lot of what I imagine as being part of a product site [11:12] tools to improve working on XR apps and bundling WR webapps [11:12] maybe we need to define terms [11:13] and I don't mean IDEs [11:13] what I am imagining here is a site that says: [11:13] :) [11:13] I think that webrunner has real potential and it needs branding, polishing, etc. Also, somewhere there should be a nice pretty page like mozilla.com (not wiki.mozilla.org) where people can find builds, docs, etc. So in some way I agree with plasticmillion's product dreams ;) [11:13] "XULRunner and WebRunner" [11:13] "What are they?" [11:13] "Where do I get them?" [11:13] "How do I use them?" [11:13] "Demos/examples" [11:13] plasticmillion: why not make that site be MDC? [11:13] we certainly could [11:14] if we're targeting *developers*, IMO that should be MDC [11:14] we're definitely targeting developers [11:14] we should definitely collect/write/polish those kinds of docs [11:14] I'm very fuzzy on the role of "Mozpad" in all this [11:14] someday there could be a "spreadwebrunner.com" site? [11:14] are we mainly a newsgroup? [11:14] don't we also care about users? we want to make all these apps that developers are working on easily findable to people who are interested. [11:14] hmmm, I just had a thought [11:14] an IRC channel? [11:15] do we need that wiki or web presence at all? [11:15] davidwboswell: users just cause problems [11:15] :) [11:15] plasticmillion: mozpad is a "user group" and a web presence is good [11:15] davidwboswell: always wanting bug fixes, new features, etc. [11:15] we need the moon [11:15] I don't like docuwiki much [11:15] mfinkle: so what should be on our website? [11:15] twentyafterfour: and your suggested alternative? [11:15] but I love the blog feed [11:15] the wiki looks like (pardon my French) shit [11:16] plasticmillion: I would suggess something more like spreadfirefox ;) [11:16] mission, goals, projects and who is working on them [11:16] bsmedberg: how many feeds are currently on the Moon? [11:16] -- maybe one aspect of mozpad, the group, should be to act as volunteer QA / testers for each other's stuff - or more accurately, XR/WR-based products should be announced to mozpad directly in addition to the public, and we can assist each other in banging on betas [11:16] it's listed on the right side of the moon [11:16] twentyafterfour: you said you might be qualified to look the thing up? [11:16] +1 for spreadfirefox-ish mozpad site [11:17] WeirdAl: agreed [11:17] mozpad should also be evangelizing the platform [11:17] maybe the issue I see is what is the "hook" to get people involved? [11:17] to me a lot of this is about getting more people involved, but maybe that is misguided? [11:17] plasticmillion: no, you're not misguided about that [11:17] plasticmillion: qualified for what? I know how to build a drupal site if that's the qualification... [11:18] we're more about people than any given product :) [11:18] twentyafterfour: a site with basically the same functionality but that looks let crappy [11:18] twentyafterfour: part of that might be simply having a better theme, part is having better design skills than me (i.e. virtually nil) [11:18] WeirdAl: you've been talking to mfinkle haven't you? ;-) [11:18] actually, no [11:19] plasticmillion: there are lots of wiki sites for mozilla stuff... [11:19] great minds think alike [11:19] and you guys think alike too! :-p [11:19] twentyafterfour: ok so you think we should migrate to whatever w.m.o uses? [11:19] alright well let me summarize what we've concluded so far [11:20] plasticmillion: I would like to see a community site rather than a wiki site. more like facebook or spreadfirefox [11:20] please correct me if I'm wrong [11:20] personally, I think the mozpad site is irrelevant - its for mozpad only, so don't get hung up on it [11:20] plasticmillion: but enough about that, I'm not too concerned with the site's architecture. it does need to look better [11:20] use what you got [11:20] we redo the Mozpad wiki to look mor elike a community site, with a list of projects, upcoming events (e.g. these meetings), info about resources (newsgroup, etc.) and how to get involved [11:20] mfinkle: -1 [11:20] we don't have to go nuts but it's a real mess [11:20] let's make it a bit more appealing [11:21] :| [11:21] basically I'd love for someone with some skills in that area to take charge of the wiki [11:21] I suck at that kind of stuff [11:21] that's up to you guys, but my point is mozpad.org != spreadxulrunner.com [11:21] here is one role for mozpad: providing a support backbone for xulrunner - there is a perception that mozilla is not really interested in xulrunner (or anything beyond firefox) .... we need to fight that perception (even if it has some basis, we need to eliminate the fear that xulrunner might go away) [11:21] just like w.mo. != spreadfirefox.com [11:21] mfinkle: it could and probably serve at least some of that role for the time being [11:21] I can help with content but I have no design skills [11:22] we're overreaching again - focus! [11:22] davidwboswell: hehe, wouldn't that be ironic - we are all dev guys, working with web tech, and we've forgotten how to build nice web pages :) [11:22] ok whatever, I'm deal looking for someone to deal with the site, I guess [11:22] maybe I can get one of my employees to do it [11:23] bike shedding [11:23] anyway, as I was saying [11:23] we continue with the projects as outlined, basically [11:23] I can help with the site but I'm not keen on wiki [11:23] and I am planning to shift my focus to more documentation oriented stuff [11:24] developer.mozilla.org and wiki.mozilla.org are enough for me ;) [11:24] documentation is good...:) [11:24] ok fair enough, maybe I'm just impatient to see more people get involved [11:24] but that will come as we improve the support materials for the products [11:25] and as the products themselves improve, of course [11:25] plasticmillion: yeah, we can't expect Firefox's phenomenal success :) [11:25] not right away [11:25] yeah, not right away [11:25] that wasn't my expectation, believe me [11:25] (if ever) [11:25] not right away but webrunner and xulrunner in general have big potential [11:25] I'll try to propose an outline for MDC [11:25] over the next couple of weeks [11:26] we can make that our homebase for the products [11:26] that'll keep mfinkle happy [11:26] we can run the outline by sheppy [11:26] hey, that could be our mission! [11:26] "Keeping mfinkle happy since 2007" [11:27] mfinkle: yeah we can coordinate with MDC people, naturally [11:27] any specific comments on the existing projects? [11:27] that would make me happy [11:27] I haven't made much progress on my API project since my last post on the topic but it shouldn't be too much effort to tie up loose ends [11:27] plasticmillion: check out the projects page on my site: http://www.developerfriendly.com/projects/browse [11:28] * KaiRo giggles on bsmedberg's stance about "on the right side of the moon" - or actually about how this sounds if one doesn't know what it was intended to mean [11:28] if people like the webrunner concept, I would point you to the webrunner planning wiki page [11:28] if we're coordinating docs with MDC, we should consider getting everyone interestd togther for a docs coordination type meeting [11:28] http://wiki.mozilla.org/WebRunner:Planning [11:28] the one I promised to setup like two months ago [11:28] and then never did [11:28] mfinkle: the planning page is nice but there needs to be more evangelism [11:28] * KaiRo envisions mozpad.org as a good entry point to the platform(s) [11:28] more discussion of open issues [11:28] how can people contribute if they want to? [11:29] http://wiki.mozilla.org/WebRunner has the contributing info [11:29] just bringing mfinkle pizza and soda? [11:30] ... [11:30] yeah okay, there's some info there [11:30] bit more clarity, organization and evangelism is what we need [11:30] plasticmillion: I have been trying to contribute to webrunner, and most recently by way of my own extension. Maybe others could follow that path to play without forking code [11:30] no other comments on existing projects? [11:30] Mozpad projects, I mean [11:30] plasticmillion: we probably also need one or two benevolent dictators to make active decisions [11:30] * WeirdAl points at the co-chairs ;) [11:31] has anyone made any progress on the stuff they're working on? anyone had second thoughts about the validity of what they're working on? [11:31] WeirdAl: decisions about what? [11:31] plasticmillion: about all this. [11:31] make a call, and if people protest too much, change it [11:32] -- I include myself in that, by the way [11:32] well that's what I've been doing until now [11:32] do more! [11:32] re outreach, i updated the map of the mozpad universe page but haven't done much else [11:32] davidwboswell: what about the idea of a SpreadXulRunner/SpreadWebRunner site? [11:32] I'm mostly working on webrunner because I really have a lack of vision for documentation [11:32] i emailed shaver about that, but haven't heard back [11:33] i need to ping him again [11:33] davidwboswell: shocking! [11:33] i'll do that soon [11:33] :) [11:33] yeah nag him [11:33] he's very busy [11:33] to do: nag shaver [11:33] davidwboswell: or Asa [11:33] ok, i'll try him too [11:33] twentyafterfour: I'm going to take over the documentation project I think [11:33] Mozpad: annoying shaver since 2007 [11:33] plasticmillion: I'm happy to write some more "visionary" high-level stuff [11:33] twentyafterfour: heh [11:34] twentyafterfour: :) [11:34] twentyafterfour: so it seems our role really *does* overlap with the Mozilla community at large! ;-) [11:34] lol [11:34] alright, next on the agenda is the IDE [11:34] *groan* [11:34] yes [11:34] paul: any comments from your side? [11:34] I think the next step must be to plan a real "official" discussion (IRC, forum, blog, wiki ?) about what should be the technical basis of the IDE (Eclipse, NetBeans, Gecko) [11:35] the notion of an Eclipse-based IDE was met with a lukewarm reception to say the least [11:35] functions of the choice, people interested by the project might not be the sames [11:35] paul: have you looked at Komodo IDE? [11:35] a few people have plugged it to me [11:35] Yes [11:35] including mfinkle [11:35] davidwboswell: I pinged Asa that someone may be contacting him [11:35] paul: and... [11:35] bui... It is not a free software [11:35] mfinkle, thanks [11:36] paul: ? explain more [11:36] Komodo Edit is free, the IDE from ActiveState isn't [11:36] and neither is open-source [11:36] entirely [11:36] any comments on the role of mozpad in building developers trust in the mozilla platform? It's scary to work on a platform that doesn't have a fully committed organization behind it. There is perception that xulrunner's future may be uncertain. This doesn't help us attract more developers. [11:37] * twentyafterfour likes komodo [11:37] Komodo is a very good technical base for developing an IDE, but I don't know what code we can use (since it's not an open source project) [11:37] well komodo edit is pretty open [11:37] it supports extensions [11:38] and it does most of what I need already [11:38] twentyafterfour: mozpad should be evangelizing the mozilla platform to help build developer "trust" [11:38] twentyafterfour: "pretty open" ? What piece of code can we use ? [11:38] mfinkle: +1 [11:38] paul: put that on the back burner for now [11:38] paul: not sure, I thought it was mpl but I must be mistaken [11:38] twentyafterfour: if we make some progress with all this stuff that will go a long way towards addressing that problem [11:39] paul: you can write many kinds of extension [11:39] I can. [11:39] I will. [11:39] alright well I'm planning to take a look at the Komodo IDE [11:39] does it work on Mac? [11:39] yes [11:39] alright well let's plan to discuss after I've looked at it [11:39] but the ide is not free and the free version does most of the important stuff [11:39] but not debugging [11:39] debugging is important [11:40] I'll look at both [11:40] both support extensions [11:40] * twentyafterfour points at firebug [11:40] Ok, let me write a post about different choice (komodo, eclipse ...) ... then we can start a real discussion [11:40] it does sound like a logical basis for moving forward [11:40] okay, next on the agenda is replacing XUL with Flex [11:40] (just kidding) [11:40] :) [11:40] o_O [11:40] WeirdAl: you wanted the floor? [11:40] yes, this won't take long [11:41] you lost me with flex...that's just about the worst tech that I have ever used [11:41] twentyafterfour: JUST KIDDING [11:41] plasticmillion: I know [11:41] less than twelve hours ago, a patch hit the Mozilla trunk for extensions which can support all Gecko-based apps [11:41] this is bug 299716 [11:41] * plasticmillion thinks it's funny that enefekt blogs endlessly about how great Flex is but twentyafterfour hates it [11:42] ha [11:42] I like flash. I like adobe. just don't like flex [11:42] * twentyafterfour loads bugzilla [11:42] this means if you know an extension that works in, say, Firefox, and you want it in your XR app, a good way to get it is to add "the toolkit" as a target app going forward. [11:42] twentyafterfour: if you have time to blog about why you don't like Flex, I'm interested... out of scope for this meeting, obviously [11:42] OT here, but I think Flex ROXX [11:42] ..... [11:43] WeirdAl: so why do we care, concretely? [11:43] are you just saying that those of us who have extensions should make Toolkit a target app? [11:43] * plasticmillion wonders if AllPeers could do that [11:43] not that precisely, but something different [11:43] are sidebars part of toolkit or what? [11:43] they're part of browser, aren't they? [11:43] I think so, yes [11:44] ok well thanks for heads up... very interesting development indeed [11:44] IMO, the new target works best for commandline driven / separate window type extensions [11:44] so this would be for low-level extensions? ...like extensions that provide features more than overlaying chrome? [11:44] like DOMi and Venkman [11:44] I'm saying if there's an extension which could be used in your app - XForms, Chatzilla, Inspector, Venkman, JSLib come to mind - or all XR apps, you could nominate it [11:44] interesting [11:45] mfinkle: so what's the deal with sidebars? [11:45] I would like to see inspector nominated [11:45] it takes a bit less than ten lines of install.rdf additions to enable that [11:45] sidebars are UI dependent [11:45] mfinkle: yeah, I guess we need to have an option to be a separate window [11:45] twentyafterfour: beat you to it, bug 342592 [11:45] we're already discussing [11:45] WeirdAl: Bug https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=342592 nor, --, mozilla1.9beta, ajvincent@gmail.com, ASSI, Make --enable-extensions=inspector work for XULRunner [11:45] if it's not depending on something specific to an app, but depending only on the platform itself to work, it's a good diea to add toolkit as target [11:45] ok [11:46] alright well this was very useful for putting me back on the path to enlightenment, anyway [11:46] this is just a FYI [11:46] this is a good thing [11:46] google gears is a great one too [11:46] if anyone knows someone who could/would/should make our wiki look better, I know it seems like a minor detail but I'd be most grateful [11:46] AMO, AUD, etc., support isn't quite there yet [11:46] is gears open-source? [11:46] mfinkle: yeah good call [11:46] yes [11:46] I thought Gears competes with "DOMStorage", no? [11:47] who cares [11:47] ... am I just rambling now? :) [11:47] mfinkle: I have spoken to people who care at Mozilla, but whatever [11:47] I'd hope we could do that for dictionaries, but it looks like AMO needs us to still specifically its supported apps in addition to the toolkit [11:47] Gears seems cool, I'm happy to see them win [11:47] if webapps use gears, then webrunner would like its support :): [11:47] WeirdAl: "now"? [11:47] mfinkle: yeah [11:47] I just notice that the convo has turned to Google Gears... [11:48] so basically with Flex, Gears, NSPR and NSS we won't need Mozilla at all! [11:48] and on that note [11:48] * plasticmillion declares the meeting officially closed [11:48] thanks everyone [11:48] I'll blog a summary and transcript and all that, as usual [11:48] nice way to end it [11:49] * plasticmillion does his best [11:49] plasticmillion: lets talk more re: docs and re: website ...you name a time or we can just take it to the moon [11:49] twentyafterfour: when's good for you? [11:49] I was planning to split now [11:49] yeah later [11:49] * plasticmillion has to get up at 5am tomorrow to catch a flight [11:49] tomorrow maybe [11:50] twentyafterfour: what timezone are you in? [11:50] or maybe just blag about it [11:50] * plasticmillion is traveling tomorrow [11:50] don't forget Mozilla 24, coming up Sept. 15 [11:50] * plasticmillion likes "blag" [11:50] like bragging on your blog, right? [11:50] plasticmillion: GMT-6 [11:50] kind of my speciality [11:50] twentyafterfour: East Coast? [11:50] heheh... I got blag from xkcd.com [11:50] plasticmillion: central [11:51] ok well tomorrow sucks for me [11:51] how about Friday? [11:51] that's fine [11:51] http://www.mozilla24.com/en-US/ [11:51] okay well just ping me here when you get up [11:51] plasticmillion: I'll blag some and then we can touch base on friday if possible [11:51] earlier the better from my perspective since I'm 7-8 hours ahead of you [11:51] ok [11:51] ok who will be at Mozilla 24 in the Bay Area? [11:51] * plasticmillion will be there [11:52] plasticmillion: definitely [11:52] I wish [11:52] it'll be nice to meet you [11:52] WeirdAl: totally [11:53] mfinkle: you gonna be there? [11:55] <-- pascalc has left this server (Ping timeout). [11:55] mfinkle: you said that the Komodo license doesn't matter... right ? I don't understand why. [11:56] paul: it seems it's true that we can't use komodo edit code or distribute the app, but we can write extensions. I like komodo but I don't like restrictive licenses [11:57] So we will depend on ActiveState... [11:58] yeah... not the best option. I think the best open solution is xulexplorer (even though it's not far along right now) [11:58] * WeirdAl feigns annoyance [11:58] yes [11:58] WeirdAl is no fan of an ide project? [11:58] I am... [11:58] a big fan of it [11:59] I don't like the idea to not control all the source code of a such project. [11:59] eh, forget it [11:59] agreed [11:59] *** plasticmillion is now known as plasticmillion_away. [11:59] WeirdAl: I'm interested in your thoughts if you are not too annoyed to talk about it ;) [12:00] twentyafterfour: I'm not, I'm just biased towards my own work ;) [12:00] I use Spket, but ... [12:00] but my stuff isn't ready [12:00] eclipse is too large... [12:01] WeirdAl: I would love to see it become more ready, I played with your distro once but couldn't make much headway [12:01] * twentyafterfour does not like eclipse. [12:01] twentyafterfour: yeah, and I have not had time to work on it lately [12:01] not with toolkit@m.o taking so much of my time [12:01] I don't see a good reason to use java to develop xul/js [12:02] twentyafterfour: yes [12:02] me too. [12:02] We must choose quickly technical basis of a future IDE. [12:03] we should at minimum look to komodo as a good model for xul ide [12:03] their product is pretty solid [12:04] yeah... if we ever integrate paul's SciTE work into a XR product, it'll wake people up [12:04] it's compelling to build such a thing on Gecko/XULRunner, but I wonder how many such projects have failed already (viXen, etc.) [12:04]